DairyVoice Podcast
DairyVoice Podcast
Showbox Sires Releases New Bull Eternity 744HO18213
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In this episode of the Showbox Sires series The Evolution of the Great Cow, Tim Abbott and Mike Duckett talk with Terry Smygwaty of Smygwaty Holsteins in Ontario. They review the newest bull in the Showbox Sires line up 744HO18213 ETERNITY.
The group talks about Eternity’s amazing pedigree, Sire stack and female family. And, they discuss how you could use Eternity going forward. Eternity’s offers an eye-catching linear profile and well-rounded production to boost a herd’s type and performance. Eternity Is available through your Select Sires representative.
Welcome to our latest in a series of bull sire reports from Showbox Sires Dairy Business, The Dairy Voice. I'm Tim Abbott, the host of the podcast series, and today we have my partner in Showbox Sires, Mike Ducket, as always, and a special guest to introduce our latest release bull for Showbox Sires through the Select Sires program, 744HO 18213 Eternity. He is a very interesting Anahita son out of Lambda Erica, a cow we've talked about in several podcasts, and a very popular cow that we're involved in. Our special guest for our podcast today is Terry Smigwadi from Ontario. Terry was instrumental in the development of Lambda Erica and has been involved in her career basically from the start. So, Terry, welcome to our podcast. It's great to have you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's great to be here. Appreciate the invite. And yeah, it's exciting. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so Terry, tell us a little bit about Smigwadi Holsteins, your operation, and uh what goes on there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so we're we're a second-generation dairy farm here in Russell. My parents started farming oh, many, many years ago. We've been in this location for about 30 years. Russell's about 20 minutes east of Ottawa, Canada's capital. We milk around 75 cows, farm around 200 acres. My wife, Holly, my three kids, Haley, Ryan, and Emily, help help with the day-to-day of the farm. And yeah, we're just farming away in Russell. It's lots of fun.
SPEAKER_01And and honestly, just geographically, you would be really close to the Quebec border. Is that right? Uh about an hour. Yep. Yeah. About an hour. And and on the brighter side, you're also close to the New York border.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yep. Well, you could go an hour and a bit either way, and you're gonna hit the states or Quebec. So yeah, we've yeah, you, yep.
SPEAKER_01I think you know it's good. Our listeners from all over the world like to get that little feel for for where you're located. Um so really in the past five years, Terry, I would say Smigwatty Holstein's wasn't, you know, a name that was known around the world as much as it is today. What have you done the past five years? Or I'm sure it's more than that, maybe it's 10 years. But tell us a little of what your direction has been.
SPEAKER_00Well, like my parents started farming. We had a like a purebred herd of cows. We didn't participate in classification and and showing and all that stuff. And then maybe as a kid, I started my 4-H career would be where everything started, and just investing in different females, enjoying showing, enjoying going to the Royal Winter Fair, things like that. And then we kind of we maybe slowed down a little bit again doing amber transfer and all that kind of stuff. And then when our kids started getting older again, started back in 4-H, that really kind of kick-started things, maybe doing a bit better with our calves, participating more because we had more time. We built a new barn, we changed a lot of things to the farm, so just more time back then. We didn't have as much of to maybe participate in Holstein events like we are now. So I think that's really the main difference. Like when I was a kid, I I loved 4-H and I love showing, and I hung around lots of people that were keen, but we we just didn't really have the time, maybe as we do now, to put in a better effort and and participate.
SPEAKER_01And has it become a has it become a financial impact product line for your for your operation, your breeding stock?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yep. Like we we started hosting tag sales pretty much out of necessity. Maybe our first one, we had such like we built the brand new barn, increased cow comfort, made a lot of animals, a lot of calves, and then we just we had nowhere to go with them, right? So we we had to have hosting sales, promote ourselves a little bit, put yourself out there and open up the barn doors, as you would say, and and then put a price on everything that was, you know, that we thought was a good product, and you know, just let people come through and hopefully they pick something out, take it home, develop it, and that's really open things up. We've met a lot of people doing that, and it's been really, really good.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's a neat story, Mike. How many, how many people in our industry are driven either by their own 4-H experience or that of the kids, you know, like Terry? I would say before we go to Mike, your your kids are really keen on this, right? Oh, yeah, yep. And and that that's a driver for any of us, right? If the next generation is fired up about breeding cattle and and promoting your cattle, there's nothing like it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. Like we we use the 4-H program every year. We invest in a few new calves, like really interesting cow families. It's got to be the kind of that complete package is when we will buy a calf, everybody gets behind it, we all put effort into that heifer and enjoy it for the 4-H season, and then cross your fingers. Hope she calves going to be a really exceptional cow. Sometimes we flush them after the 4-H season, try to build new family quickly around it. And then if we do have like a tag sales coming up in the future, you've got a crop of calves. People have seen the animals, we try to promote them a little bit, and and you're off and running pretty pretty quick.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's that's a neat, that's a neat way to do it and a neat approach. Mike, you've been very involved with Terry for years. You've you've gone to his farm several times and bought quite a few cattle out of his barn. Tell us a little bit about your connection with Terry and Holly and the family.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's certainly when you when you think about everybody we've talked to, Tim, on all these podcasts, almost all of it goes back to the the 4-H days and and the stuff that we're doing with their kids and stuff. And that that pushes you to do a better job, and that gets your name out there. And I have, you know, my my first purchase from Terry was an alligator through one of his tag sales, and a group of us bought a really nice young cow there, and she went on and she done really good things for us and ended up at Elmview. And and she's still uh around and and and doing well. And then the the last tag sale, I bought part of uh I own a cow or a cow with uh Terry and Holly and and McMillan's from Erica. And and but that's for me, I think that's kind of how most people do get their name out there. They they open up the doors and they invite people in, and and with 4H and stuff with the kids, it's a good way to improve your herd.
SPEAKER_01Well, and Terry, Mike and I talk a lot about show box fires. Why we started it was because we wanted breeders like you to have an option to make bulls for us, but also to use our bulls to improve your herd. And but make it like the good old days of sitting around on the show box talking about who they're who they're breeding. Have you found that to be the way you breed cows now?
SPEAKER_00Definitely. Oh, yeah, you like exactly that. Sitting around, have a few drinks, enjoy each other's company at the shows. You're always spitballing. What should we do? What like what bloodline should you mix with each other? Sire stacks, cow families that are popular. What have you seen around the roads that you know a new fancy cow or something that's breeding really well? Yeah, it always revolves around sitting around at the shows when you're done chores and you know having having a good time, and that's where usually the best ideas pop up, I find.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's right. And that's uh that's kind of how we built our business. So now the now we need to get to the crux of our of our podcast. We want to talk about Lambda Erica, the the damn of this new Anahita Sun, eternity. You know, I think our listeners are pretty familiar, you know, with Lambda Erica. She was just on the cover of Holstein International with a beautiful picture. We've released another son of her, and she would be one of Mike and my most popular donors for embryos. How you tell us your involvement with Erica, Terry, and and how you got involved.
SPEAKER_00Well, it started with the Nrights years ago. They brought or they sold a Solomon Espresso calf to Blonde Inn. She went out and won her class at the Royal Winter Fair. We had already kind of we knew that they the Nrights had bought the Gold Chip Ellen cow and were using her as a donor cow. We've seen the family for years, the generations of cows. I've seen them at the Royal Winter Fair, all those elegance cows, and they were always just really, really impressive. So we knew the cow family, we knew that they were performing pretty good. And Holly and myself were out for lunch. I think that the next winter, and N rights are located like 20 minutes from us. We're we're friends with them, we're going for years. Just popped in. I believe there's three units' daughters in the one pen. And I kind of had my heart set on the one. The cap was sold maybe the day before. So I think Trixie was actually our second pick, which turned out to be pretty good. So anyway, we made a deal to bring Trixie home. And like I said, at that time we weren't showing or doing anything really. We're just kind of farming away. So Trixie just got kind of put away, put out to pasture, bred. We bred at Alanda. She she cabbed late in the fall after I believe it was our first tag sale. Trixie came cabbed, and uh yeah, she she developed really nice. We scored the cow maybe mid-winter. I think she won 86 points, and then uh it was kind of the start of Facebook and all that for us. Holly put up a video actually featuring Trixie, and that got the attention of the McMillans of Kingsway. And I think it was Morgan and Justin Beltoise popped in and they wanted to see the cow. And then the following day, Ethan drilled down and he wanted to see the cow, so we made a deal pretty quick, and she made uh found a new home at Kingsway and yeah, and just went on from there. I think she she was first seen at two the following summer, and then then we dried her off, and yeah, she was bred back for the next year again. So and Erica just lived in the pens here, and yeah, it was was a really nice supper. She was actually lot one in the following year's sale. The sale that Mike bought Raindrop, Raindrop was lot two, Erica was lot one in that same sale. So it's kind of neat.
SPEAKER_01That's a lot of power. That's a lot of power in one sale, wasn't it? Raindrop and Erica selling one and two. Talking about opening the doors, right, Mike? Yep, yep.
SPEAKER_00We actually had we had went back the other day and looked in our catalog for that sale. We had Erica was lot one, raindrop was lot two. We had a cow named Sidekick Amarillo. She was nominated all American in the juniors. We had Sidekick Dawn was on the mention all America or All Canadian in the Milk and Winter Yearlings that year. And we had all Canadian Red and White Calf was a uh a warrior from the Apple family that was that won for my daughter at the Royals. So we had five different animals that got nominated in some kind of form out of that tag sale year. So it was a really special year.
SPEAKER_01Not many sales, Mike, and you and I have had some great ones, but not many sales can boast five nominations out of one sale and and particularly right out of one barn.
SPEAKER_00And all different cow families too. That was the kind of unique thing. Nothing was really overpowering one family over another. They just all kind of clicked at the right time, and and we were really, really lucky.
SPEAKER_01So, Mike, you were the guy that started the our relationship with Erica. Tell us about when you saw the cow the first time and what happened from there.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'd like to take a lot of credit for finding her, but actually I was scrolling on social media one day and Ryan Karskadin. He had been back to to the farm and was explaining the story how this used to be Fairbanks. And it would be his home farm. And down at the corner of his post, he had a video of Erica. And I seen the this video on Facebook. And right away I got on the phone and talked to Terry and Ethan. And next thing I did was got in a truck and went to see her. And I'll never forget getting there. And and as you walk through Terry's herd, it's you know, Terry's bought a lot of great pedigree cows and built from them. And so you walk through and you see famous cows all the way down, and then we get back to the back when she was in a box stall, and his his daughter takes her out, and she was one of those cows that you just didn't want to leave without something done. So the cow, it's so impressive. So she had one problem, and she was going to be due the first week in October. So that was my stumbling block there. I just because obviously for us, World Air Exposed is the show that we we want them for, but I still couldn't leave her along, even due wrong. And we made a deal to to purchase a part of her and Terry and and Ethan stayed in. Just a cow that was tremendous balance, dairy, long neck, quality cow with uh elegance family for a pedigree. So it was definitely worth the trip to go to eastern Ontario to buy the cow.
SPEAKER_01But it started a great partnership with you guys. And Terry, you remember the you know the cow well and followed her closely. What what really set Erica apart for you trait-wise?
SPEAKER_00Trait-wise, rear rudder volume, depth of crease in a rear rudder, just utter quality, like the cow would milk out just a nothing. Her udder was covered in veins, uh rear rudder forward or both her chest. She was had a really wide chest and really long, dairy neck, a beautiful head. And yeah, she had like wicked sex appeal, and she had a great udder. Like she was just a beautiful cow. Just yeah, Trixie was a great cow. Erica was just a step ahead of her. The Lambda Cross really put utter volume in her, gave her more will to milk, and Trixie was a really hard-working cow. But yeah, like the Lambda Cross really, really nicked great with Trixie. Like we have some other sisters here, and they all look really, really interesting. And I can't wait to cab them in. Hopefully, they're half as nice as Eric and we'll be in pretty good shape.
SPEAKER_01Well, the and the neat part is, you know, Mike, you and I talk about sire lineups all the time. When you put when you put Lambda and Unix and Gold Chip, and then you then you mix in the older generation of bulls behind that with Dundee and with you know all the great bulls that are in the elegance family. I think it's 11 or 12 generations of excellent cows, if I'm not mistaken.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, 11 generation, but there's two 96 and 195 in those 11, and and they're all from bulls that have made a big impact during their time. And they're they're bulls that got crossed back and forth on each other, and and were the magical matings all the way back.
SPEAKER_01So, Mike, Erica now lives at Ducket Holsteins, she's one that Showbox Sires now owns solely ourselves. What's her status right now? And can you tell our listeners a little about her?
SPEAKER_02So, Erica, um, you know, we last year she was fifth place senior three, but she had been milking exactly a year at expo time, and so she's fresh again, the end of March. Cal looks tremendous. She had I think she had about 135 pounds of milk this last test with a four-two fat. We are pretty excited to get her out this fall. Cal's done exactly what we've asked. Uh, she's just matured and and she's she still has that impressive rear udder and and veins all over. And you know, when you start looking at her, she just she's exactly what and you know, Terry's talking rear udder and stuff, and she's breeding that on to her. When you look at the stuff in this bull, like I think she's gonna be a cow that transmits just like all the generations before.
SPEAKER_01Well, we've said many times, you know, the elegance family has not really had an impact in the AI business, you know, in a big way yet. And as we've talked to Joel Keatsman, we've talked to the Kingsway boys, and now Terry, Erica's the first real cow that puts it all together, isn't she, Terry? Like the cow that's got enough numbers and enough sirestack and enough show appeal to get it done. And yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the cross of Lambda on in the cow has changed things, I think, a lot. Really, you get way more production out of out of the pedigree and stuff like that, and I think that's a big change.
SPEAKER_01So, Mike, you just traveled around Quebec about 3,000 miles, if I'm not mistaken, through the province looking at cattle. You saw a few Anahitas, and I think a lot of our listeners may be familiar with the name, but not the bull himself and what he's doing. Can you tell us? You've been a big fan of Anahita all along. Tell us what you can about him.
SPEAKER_02So actually, Anahita, I think it's and the reason we used him here is we actually owned, I would think it would be his fourth dam, McCutch in April. She was quite a nice young cow that we bought when we were in Quebec one time, and then like the the family passed that was was there at Mystique. And I did see a few, very few Anahitas fresh, but it looked like they had lots of width and tremendous udders, and then Ambrose in the same family. We've seen a few more of those, and it looks like they were they were making the same exact kind, beautiful udders, big rear udders, and lots of strength and power. And and on the heifers that we have here, we should have some this ball cabin. Definitely heifers that are more modern in their frames as far as the the width and the strength. Probably not going to make a ton of show heifers out of out of out of them, but I think they're correct and and adding some of the stuff that we need to to the genetics we've got now.
SPEAKER_01And what I really get excited about with the Anahitas I've seen, they are a little more strong, a little more compact, but boy, Erica is as long as a train. And Terry, you referenced her long neck.
SPEAKER_00So last spring, Mike actually sent me an Anahita from Erica. And very unassuming calf. We tucked her away in the pens, just fed her along, and now she's she's a spring yearling right now. We flushed that for she's changed immensely. And exactly what Mike said, like her frame, square cow cut frame, and she has Erica's long dairy neck, like she is exactly what you think putting the two together you could get. That's what this heifer is. Like, she's I think she's one of my best prospects for next year for calving in, and uh really exciting heifer dairy strength and dairyness at the same time, so it's pretty unique combination.
SPEAKER_01Well, and it when our listeners look at the pictures, Mike, of the bull, he is one pretty rascal, isn't he? He uh the bull looks just like you're described the heifer, Terry. Like this bull is long and square and stylish. Boy, he's a pretty bull, huh? Mike, you've seen the pictures.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and you know, like um the the thing with Erica is she's you know, you can see a lambda here and there that has the you know the little square short heads and stuff. This cow's got a beautiful long head and neck, and and this bull, you when you see the the front view of him, he's extremely wide-chested. And I think that's um it's it's going to be a good combination.
SPEAKER_01So, Terry, you studied the bull a little bit. My breeders always like to hear from the breeders of the cow family how you would use the bull, like on daughters of what, how what direction would you go when you're using this bull for our listeners?
SPEAKER_00Anything with sidekick in it and in their blood, I would use this bull like crazy. Majors, sidekick himself, chiefs. I really I'm a big fan of Chief. It would work really well with Chiefs, detectives, alligator blood. Like, I the way the daughter looks here and the way her frame is and stuff, like Mike already talked about Anahita and the way he makes frames. I think everybody needs dairy strength, they need to you know shorten their calves down, widen them up a little bit. And with Erica's springer rib and the way the bull makes frames, is pretty much a you could use them anywhere. It's like just maybe not on lambda blood because he's got enough lambda in him already, but yeah, pretty much anywhere. He's it's gonna make something really nice and really strong at the same time.
SPEAKER_01But boy, you really point out some blood lines, Mike, that that makes sense. Thing about the alligator blood with detective, the sidekick blood, the majors, the chiefs. Those are all great spots to use this bull, aren't they?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and Doc. Like you know, Doc would be another spot that you could use this bull pretty pretty well because he's gonna bring down a stature, add some width, and straighten up those front legs a bit. I think there's a lot. Of Doc blood out there that could use them too.
SPEAKER_01Well, it sounds like there's plenty of places to use this bull. Hopefully, the crew at Select Sires and Worldwide Sires will start delivering it, huh, Mike? We've there's plenty of cows to breed to him. Mike, let's go inside the numbers a little bit about this bull. Tell me what stands out to you. There's a couple things that I think you and I are really fired up about the bull when we break him down on numbers.
SPEAKER_02So I think the the really neat thing about this bull is is you know he he works for our system in the U.S. and he works well in the system in Canada as well. He's he's 2.7 for type in the US, which puts him in a elite group, and he's plus 15 for confirmation. You don't always get that those bulls that work in both systems. He's plus on milk in both systems, he's plus on fat, huge rear rudders, and and he'll add teet length. But the the one thing I I like is he's he's two and a half points of stature, he's a point and a half of openness, almost two for strong, over two for deep. Those first four or five categories, they're real, those numbers are real close to each other. And I think that's that that breeds balanced cows with lots of width and depth, and and I think that's where he's unique and and with the pedigree behind him. I think that's that's a pretty neat uh trait to have.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think you brought up a couple points. Terry, you look at bulls all the time. A 2.7 type in the US, a 15 confirmation Canada. And then Mike, almost every podcast you and I study those first four traits for frames, because so many times you can get a three and a half point type bowl or a 18 confirmation bowl, but they're they're 4-2 on stature and 1-1 on strength and and openness. Those bowls make the tall, narrow ones. These bowls that are balanced, like you talked about. Terry, do you that those are traits you want to see in what you're using as well, correct?
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, yep. Like I said, I don't know anybody that says, Oh, my cow is really tall, or my cow is too short and wide, and I want to make her tall and narrow. Like it's everybody wants the cows to you know widen up, be strong. They can fit in any system, a tie stall, a free stall. Like everybody's mindset is changing, and that's that's the future of cows, I think.
SPEAKER_01Well, this has been a great discussion, you know, as as we move forward. Mike, your your plan is to have Erica in our string at Madison. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_02Yep, she will be one of our highlights of our string again this year. I think after last year, everybody loved her milk in a year. They're gonna really like her in her prime.
SPEAKER_01The other thing is, Terry, at some point on this podcast, Mike and I have to talk about an uncomfortable subject with you about the refund you have to give us for the lack of embryos that she's produced. Because there's recently she's had a couple that she only had 30.
SPEAKER_00Um that's too bad, but too bad, guys.
SPEAKER_01Right. I knew you know, Mike, we might as well just get it out in the open, right? If we're gonna have trouble with Terry, we may as well get it done right now publicly.
SPEAKER_02It might be easier to deal with him right here.
SPEAKER_01Well, notice we're not going to the McMillan boys for this conversation, but you know, seriously, you know, and I bring up that topic for fun. Erica is a great embryo producer, but she's also a great reproductive cow. Like, think about Terry and Mike. You've been the guys putting semen in her and managing her. And she gets pregnant, you wave, you wave semen in front of her and she's pregnant. Isn't that the way she's been?
SPEAKER_02She gets she gets semen again on Friday. So she's she's set up to get bred again on Friday. And you're you're 100% right. You can have the best cow in the world, and if there's no reproduction there, it's you're not gonna push the genetics forward or you're not gonna make any money. So when you get a total package like Erica, it makes it pretty fun.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's a there's a little part of the Erica story too. Whenever we put her in our tag cell years ago as a heifer, the your family had bought an interest in Erica. We owned her together and we flushed her to sidekick as a young heifer. I believe she made 15 sidekick embryos, and then like the sidekicks resulting, Chris has some really beautiful heifers, and then we have two sidekicks here that are gonna be both due for second calf winter two-year-olds this fall. So if you you're talking about fertility and cows that want to work and just be good cows, like this cow can do it for sure. And her daughters are doing it already, they're fertile and everything's going in the right direction.
SPEAKER_01Well, you'll be glad to know one of our recent uh matings on her, Terry, was sidekick again because we just think it's such a cool crossing to make something really, really out there. Uh oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Sidekicks on the comeback, some great cows. He's he's made a lot of great calves, and it's a it's a perfect cross for for Eric. But we did it years ago, and you guys are gonna be really happy again with your calves.
SPEAKER_01So we'll kind of let you wrap up your final thoughts, Terry, and you've kind of headed down that path. Give us your final thoughts on this bull and uh on what you know what we're doing with him at Showbox, if you wouldn't mind for our listeners.
SPEAKER_00I just think it's like said, the way people are the modern day cow is going. You want cows that are wide with a nice spring to the rib with really high quality udders, and they're like have that true dairy quality. Erica's got that. Cross Vanajita. It's I think it's gonna be probably one of her better crosses, in my opinion. And I'm really excited to see how my heifer here calves in and really excited to see the calves that uh Eternity can make for people. I think he'd he's gonna be pretty interesting. Bull.
SPEAKER_01Well, we sure appreciate you being on, Terry. Mike, any final thoughts from you on the bull and Erica?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think this bull is kind of the exact same thing that you and I when we started Showbox was kind of what we were looking for in making bulls. Famous cacao families, working with good breeders like Terry and and and all the people that's been involved in Erica from Kingsway to to McGuaddy's to all the way back and and elegance is pedigree. It's it's exactly what we're trying to do at Showbox. So we're excited to get him out there, let people use him and and excited to see the what comes of him down the road.
SPEAKER_01Well, I thank our guests Mike Duncan and Terry Smigwadi from Smigwadi Holstein's. Certainly, if you don't know Terry and Holly and their family, they are some of the most passionate young breeders in the business. Make sure you get to their farm, make sure you learn what they're doing. Terry, I met you a decade ago. You came to one of our Border View sales and bought the best heifer in the sale, a daughter of Joel Barbara that did bred very well for you. So, you know, it's it's fun, Terry, because when I met you there, I didn't know who you were. And you know, seven, eight, ten years later, you're a name that's known around the world. So congratulations. It's been a fun ride, hasn't it?
SPEAKER_00It's been really fun, Tim. Yeah. I still miss Doorman Bad every day. She was one of our favorites. Like she was well, we were so happy when we we bought that heifer, and she bred really, really well for us. And yeah, it was really fun getting to the farm in Vermont and eating, eating at the Abbey and having a beer with everybody there. And we had a great time. That's that's a big part of the Wolstein business is traveling, meeting new people, and and just enjoying things.
SPEAKER_01Well, if if you're bored on Saturday, Terry, there's a there's a sale at the Abbey, and we'd love to we'd love to have you show up. So come on down.
SPEAKER_00Is the salad bar still going?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, salad bar, covet stopped that. No more salad bar. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00That might be a deal breaker.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. Well, it's been a it's been a fun session on our podcast series. Uh Mike and I have been very excited about the combination of Anahita and Erica. One thing that we found on Anahita many times, the bulls, the bull does not make offspring that that transmit on both sides of the border, you know, and and we don't understand all that, but it's different formulas and different calculations. But a lot of the Anahitas don't get the US type, they get great Canadian confirmation. And the proof will be in the pudding as to you know which system's right. But what we love about this bull is both systems 2.7 tight, 15 confirmation. He's right at the top for both. The other thing, Mike, we talk a lot about getting more fat into the pedigrees and into our bull lineup. This bull does that, and 11 generations of the best sire stack you could have in the breed. Literally a who's who. So we're looking forward to you telling us about how you're going to use 744 HO18213 Eternity, the Anahita at a Lambda Erica, the cover girl from Holstein International, that uh will be released this week from through our system at Select Sires and Worldwide Sires around the world. Thank you for listening to this podcast.